Part II with Dr. Noelle Santorelli, Relational Aggression and Mean Girl Moms

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We are back. We are recording, and we're going to jump right into it.

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Hey, Jamie, how are you? Hi, Joe.

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Hi, Dr. Noelle Santorelli is here on the Balancing Act podcast. Welcome.

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This is part two of our talk with Dr. Noelle Santorelli. The doctor is in.

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Oh, yes, she is. Look at that. I love that.

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Put out your little shingle.

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Five cents. Five cents. Is that what Lucy used to charge? Yeah,

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there you go. Back in the day.

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So yeah we've had a lot of you know I love the conversation I'm so glad we're

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continuing it and in part one we talked about how,

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we're the problem like right like the parents are the

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ones that like our parenting generation is the ones that are

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we're doing all the things we're trying to do the bed parties and the super

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duper sweet 16 who's got the most elaborate setup for these pictures and that

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thing and you know college visits college visits and who's got what new vehicle

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for their kid and all that stuff. So we're kind of in that vein.

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So I guess what we want to ask you is, how do we fix it? Can you fix it for us?

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How do we break the cycle, if you will? And yes,

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and this is always such a complicated answer because it is a complicated culture

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that we've built with many different variables, right?

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So we've got schools that are involved. We've got parents that are involved.

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We've got kids that are involved. We've got coaches that are involved.

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So it really has to come from a cultural, developmental, and relational approach, right?

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So we've got to take culture, human development, like the development of our children, and.

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And relational approach to solving this problem. So it's not going to be like

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a one-pronged approach.

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But let's talk about some ways that I think we can start to break this cycle.

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The first way we can start to break it is by having conversations just like this.

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Having honest, authentic, vulnerable conversations about, hey, what are we doing?

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What do we see, right? I always say name it to tame it.

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If we don't talk about what we see going on in a real authentic way and we don't

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have people that are sort of brave enough to say, I don't want to ride the roller

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coaster or I don't want to go to great adventure, adventure land, right?

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If we don't have people that are going to say, I don't like this or I don't

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want to be in the mom chat, that's fine if you do, but I don't and please don't be mean to me for it.

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So we have to number one, be able to name what we're seeing.

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So I am shocked often at the number of people that work in schools that I talk

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to when I say, do you know what relational aggression is?

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Or do you understand what covert bullying is? And they say, no, I do not.

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That can't happen if we want to change this culture. Can you explain what covert bullying is?

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So covert bullying, relational aggression, and social bullying sort of all go together.

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It's sort of one, it's different words for the same behavior.

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It is targeting someone, but using relationships and using relational techniques

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like gossip, manipulation, triangulation.

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So like getting people to side in different groups, backstabbing,

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gatekeeping. So withholding information, important information that could be helpful.

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Do you know what time the audition is? No, I don't know. Do you know what building it's in?

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Right. Gatekeeping. It's using those types of exclusion, strategic exclusion,

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not just I'm having my three best friends over for a sleepover,

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but more strategic and targeted exclusion,

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weaponized social media use.

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So specifically using social media to host exclusive parties and tag people

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and not tag other people, cropping people out of photos.

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It's those kinds of behaviors that don't look as obvious as,

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you know, someone punching someone or, you know, someone having a physical fight.

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That's overt aggression. That's clear.

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That's like you just called Jamie a bad word.

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I saw you do it, Joseph. You just did it. Right. That's overt.

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I can see it. That's very different than you subtly messaging me and saying, I don't know.

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Jamie's just been a little weird lately before we got on this call.

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Right. So then I'm sort of like, yeah, Jamie is kind of weird.

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Right. Well, Jamie is kind of weird. I mean, thank you. I mean,

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and that's and that's what a compliment. That's what we love about her.

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Hey, Jamie, when you know what is Wednesday? Can I?

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Oh, my goodness. May 23rd. Mark your calendars.

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What can I? It's true. Can I add something? That's why I love you,

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friend. Yeah, that's why I love you.

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Something that drives, I mean, talk about grinds my gears. Yeah.

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There's like a group chat and people don't respond.

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Thank you for sending that out. Oh my God. And then it's like,

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and it's like, you know that now they're side texting and you just, I can't imagine.

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Now, every once in a while, and I think like we're all like at fault for,

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especially teachers, We just can't be on our phones all day long, right?

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So it's like you get the text and then you respond in your head and then you

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every once in a while forget, you know, but this is like a very specific tactic

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that. And again, this is targeted.

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This is when you need it. Oh, yes.

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It's targeted. So it's not about, you know, Michelle never responds to any group.

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She's just, you know, head in the clouds or she's busy. Michelle, she never answers.

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This is when you notice you're the one.

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Who's most often the one who's not answered in a chat.

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Yep. Right? It's targeted. It's very different than just saying,

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everyone always has to respond to everybody.

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It's when one person feels particularly targeted. It's strategic.

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But it's covert. So you look weird, since I'm going to stick with that word. Yeah.

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Or some people say crazy or needy or too sensitive. you say,

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hey, Michelle, I notice you respond to everyone's texts, but not mine.

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Then you look like you're being too much.

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That's another word that I hear a lot in my office, right? The person is too much.

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So what's a good strategy to deal with that?

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So that's really complicated because that's going to depend on where this is occurring.

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So if it's a group of teachers that you work with, you might respond differently

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than if it's a group of people in the neighborhood who you don't work with.

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So the conflict is really important.

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So whenever I'm working with people in my private practice on how to address

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relational aggression,

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it's really, really important that we're very careful about mapping out all

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the specifics, like the who, what, when, and where, and that individual person's

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personality and temperament.

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So what Jamie might be able to end the season of their life.

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So what Jamie might be able to handle. So let's say she, let's say this is a

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group of other teachers, but she works with, she works with these teachers and,

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She may proceed very differently than if this was a group of teachers that she

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was friends with from graduate school. Gotcha.

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Right. It also might depend on where she is in her season of life.

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If she's really overwhelmed with caring for parents or caring for elderly parents or a sick kid,

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she may not have the bandwidth to address it and handle the consequences of

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what her saying something might do.

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And it also depends on what her goal is at the end of the day and in this season of her life.

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Or she may not have the personality to want to handle conflict directly.

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So we have to take into account all those things when I'm working with someone

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in private practice and really map out a strategy. So just like when I work

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with people in domestic violence, we have an exit plan.

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We have a very carefully curated exit strategy.

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That's the same thing when someone's dealing with relational aggression because

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it can get really ugly, really violent, and it can really escalate to people

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losing jobs, police being involved,

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businesses failing or being destroyed on with Google reviews.

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So we have to be, I like to be very careful with how we orchestrate a response

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when someone is the target of relational aggression.

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And the consideration of that, no, it's, it's fantastic.

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I mean, the, the consideration of the season of someone's life is really what

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is so that that's just so poignant.

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And unfortunately, I think sometimes what happens is if people are not natural

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empaths, which most are not, you know, they like, how bad could that be?

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Oh, come on. You didn't have to.

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Oh, how much time did that take? You know, I think people are really,

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really like it's very easy for them to just sort of write it off.

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I sometimes think, too, it's easier for people to sort of,

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like, not think of it because it makes it, like, more difficult if they had

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to really genuinely think of how deeply someone else might be struggling.

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It's just easier for them to, like, oh, come on. Really?

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It's complicated and it's heavy. Yeah. And a lot of people are really burdened

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and busy in their own lives.

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Yeah. And so taking on sort of addressing relational aggression or being an

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upstander, if you're witnessing something like this,

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a lot of people don't have the bandwidth or don't have the comfort level with it.

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So I just recently did a post that did really well about being silent and being silent.

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Means you are, you are involved. And this can span across, you know,

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I got a lot of political comments.

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I got a lot, this can span in any avenue of life. But if you're witnessing relational

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aggression, I tell my kids this all the time.

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I was actually going to be a question I was going to ask you, but go ahead.

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Yeah. You are witnessing relational aggression. Now, something like someone

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not responding to you specifically on a chat group text chain,

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that's like probably one of the hardest ones to address because it's so covert, right?

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But if you witness someone's consistently excluding one person or you witness

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someone's consistently making, um.

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Backhanded compliments to another person, or if you witness something where,

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um, you know, your friend is being teased, you need to stand up and say something.

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And it doesn't always have to be loud. And so in my post, I said,

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you know, you can make a ripple effect, you can make change,

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and you don't have to be loud and particularly extroverted or comfortable with conflict to do it.

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Sometimes even a side check-in, like, hey, how are you?

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Or, hey, I saw what they were saying, and that wasn't cool.

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You can even do that privately and make a big impact on the individual person.

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Right? You don't have to be the person that is loud and says,

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hey, everybody, stop it right now.

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Because the people that are being bystanders, they're afraid they're going to

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be next if they stand up or speak up.

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So I have a scenario to that effect, but it's not, it's relational aggression

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a little bit within a family system.

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So, you know, let's take a wife, a mom who her mother-in-law is always liking

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everybody else's Facebook pictures, always commenting on them,

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like always having something to say, not her, not her family.

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And she's brought it up to her husband many times and he wants like zero part of that.

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Now she's liking other family members, not friends, but other family members. Yeah.

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You know, who do less or show up less or whatever that might look like to them.

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And, and, you know, so she's gone to her husband and she says like,

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this is really like, this is so hurtful.

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And, you know, and it's kind of like, here's the receipts, you know,

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a little bit like housewives, Like, here, here, you know, look, this is happening.

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And he just cannot and will not acknowledge it. What do you do in that space as a spouse?

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You know, because that just creates so much animosity. Right.

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I think, again, it comes back to understanding that this is a dynamic that is

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based in human nature and it's happening.

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So the spouse who's saying this is happening and it's hurting me,

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she's getting a very dismissive response when she's hearing it's no big deal

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or you're overreacting or this isn't true to the point where she's like,

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here, I have receipts, right? Right.

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So he's sort of dismissing something that is common knowledge behavior or it

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should be common knowledge behavior. Right.

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That's sort of the, she can say, and if she's able to label something and say,

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this is, this is actually relational, this is actually covert and it's relational aggression.

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Sometimes people need the language to understand it's happening. Okay.

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And so being able to just identify it as what it is and why it's hurting.

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There's actually a research study that I haven't gone into in as much detail

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as I'd like to, but I'd like to go into it more.

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But I just read sort of the overarching view of it.

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And it's talking about social media and its sort of role in ostracizing someone and exclusion.

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So it looks at social media and what it feels like when your stuff isn't liked

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or commented on by people that should be.

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Or when other people are creating something and they're not tagging you in it.

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Yeah, I've talked about that from a digital citizenship perspective with my,

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when I used to teach a technology elective, we used to, you know,

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have this discussion about social media and posts where, you know,

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Jamie, you post, you know, you in the dress for the cotillion and it's fire

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emojis and it's girl, you slay queen and all that other people making amazing comments.

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And then noelle posts you know

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similar picture and there are no comments not negative comments nothing and

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how we look at that as odd does my hair look okay is was this not the right

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color for me that i look fat in this picture you know whatever thoughts may

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happen and go through your head right like.

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I don't know. It's very hard for us to realize, okay, if we put ourselves out

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there and we don't hear anything in return, it becomes almost a hurtful thing.

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It is. And this research is showing, and similar to this example,

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because I do see this within families a lot.

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So people will say, oh, you talk about mean girls, you should see my mother-in-law.

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Or, oh, you talk about mean girls, you should see my sister-in-law.

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So this same type of relational aggression or covert aggression absolutely happens

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within families, grown adults,

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like families, grown children, grown adults.

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But this research study was saying that the sort of felt experience was similar

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to if you're, you know, in-person excluded.

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And it all has to do with belonging and group belonging. And we all want to

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feel certain people have higher. And so it was sort of moderated by an individual

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person's degree of need for belongingness.

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Certain people have a higher degree of a need for belonging.

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And those people felt the not liking, not tagging much more deeply than those

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who don't have that high need for belonging.

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So there's individual difference also, like personality, right? Yeah.

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That's why I feel like our kids, as they go through this cycle,

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right, this cycle of life, and, you know, they're going through high school

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and they're going to be getting to college.

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Like, I just feel like not that they're setting themselves up for failure,

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but I just think that they're like, we're not breaking the cycle with like what

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we're creating for our children.

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And like, what's it going to look like when our kids are parents for them and their kids?

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Like, are we still going to be doing all the things? And right now everything is pointing to yes.

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So I think getting some education out there, like getting education into schools,

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getting education even into sports organizations, right?

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Having a little talk about parent participation and how as much as that's,

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you know, we want that, it can also cross a line.

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Explaining what is relational aggression, what is covert aggression,

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what might it look like, help teachers understand how to identify it.

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If you've got a kid that's constantly on the receiving end of multiple people

00:18:31.767 --> 00:18:35.267
in a group saying that that kid's a quote-unquote bad kid.

00:18:36.507 --> 00:18:42.047
Maybe dive a little deeper and see if there's something you're not picking up on, right?

00:18:42.207 --> 00:18:47.127
Like Like, maybe that kid is just sort of, you know, creating havoc.

00:18:48.127 --> 00:18:53.227
But maybe he may or may not be the target of some relational aggression.

00:18:53.227 --> 00:18:57.067
So, and how would you identify that? How could you dig a little deeper?

00:18:57.247 --> 00:19:00.087
What kinds of things might you be able to look for as a teacher?

00:19:01.407 --> 00:19:06.187
You know, is that kid often alone at lunch? Did that kid used to be close with

00:19:06.187 --> 00:19:08.647
all these people and then suddenly he or she isn't?

00:19:08.747 --> 00:19:13.487
There are certain things to look for. But I think educating our people that

00:19:13.487 --> 00:19:18.167
are around children on what this is and what it might look like,

00:19:18.407 --> 00:19:21.067
doing classes on things like digital citizenship,

00:19:22.107 --> 00:19:26.087
you know, thinking before you tag a whole group and crop someone out.

00:19:27.307 --> 00:19:30.787
Because if we don't teach it, how are they going to know it? Yeah.

00:19:31.967 --> 00:19:37.687
So I think teaching and educating the kids and the adults on what this is,

00:19:37.867 --> 00:19:40.007
is really, really important.

00:19:41.811 --> 00:19:45.031
I think this is, you know, this is also, it's new, right?

00:19:45.211 --> 00:19:51.571
I mean, it's as, like, we're defining it, right? We're defining what it is.

00:19:51.691 --> 00:19:56.651
Like you said, you've got to name it to tame it. That's one of the things you let into.

00:19:57.031 --> 00:20:01.151
I mean, with the rates of suicide in middle school and teenagers, right?

00:20:01.891 --> 00:20:06.071
That doesn't typically occur because someone is physically beating someone up.

00:20:06.731 --> 00:20:13.531
Or other violent actions. It usually occurs because of covert aggression,

00:20:13.531 --> 00:20:16.591
being kicked out of a friend group, right?

00:20:16.951 --> 00:20:21.291
Literally, there are middle schoolers committing suicide because they've been

00:20:21.291 --> 00:20:23.791
canceled from a friend group.

00:20:24.531 --> 00:20:27.371
I mean, that's the level of what we're talking about here.

00:20:28.391 --> 00:20:30.271
Yeah, I have a question about cutting.

00:20:31.371 --> 00:20:34.791
Literally cutting or cutting off from a friend group? Literally cutting.

00:20:35.771 --> 00:20:41.171
Yeah, I have a cutting question. So the, you know, this has become something

00:20:41.171 --> 00:20:43.471
that we see more and more often.

00:20:43.891 --> 00:20:48.151
I, I've talked to like other people, like within my own age group,

00:20:48.231 --> 00:20:54.011
other moms and, and with kids that are teens and we're like head scratching.

00:20:54.011 --> 00:20:57.251
Like, I don't know anybody that was doing that.

00:20:57.551 --> 00:21:02.051
You know, when I was a teenager, is that because like we weren't,

00:21:02.151 --> 00:21:07.871
no one was talking about it or is it like, is that a newer form of self-harm?

00:21:08.931 --> 00:21:11.931
I, you know, and I don't, I don't know the literature on this.

00:21:12.011 --> 00:21:15.511
I work, I've worked with a fair amount of, you know, adolescents who engage

00:21:15.511 --> 00:21:16.931
in self-harming behavior.

00:21:17.151 --> 00:21:24.931
Okay. I do think that it was probably around and it was probably less talked about openly.

00:21:25.551 --> 00:21:29.151
Okay. There was sort of a period of time where,

00:21:29.991 --> 00:21:34.771
And some people were using cutting as a way to connect and find a group.

00:21:35.951 --> 00:21:41.031
So if I was cutting, and I shared that with someone else, that someone else

00:21:41.031 --> 00:21:44.131
might also share with me that they were also cutting.

00:21:44.351 --> 00:21:47.491
So it became more of like an open conversation.

00:21:48.851 --> 00:21:53.311
And over time, it almost became like a shared intimacy.

00:21:53.631 --> 00:21:59.111
Like this is a thing that we do. Got it. That's not to say why the cutting started in the first place,

00:21:59.111 --> 00:22:05.251
but there were sort of these groups or pockets of kids that would engage in

00:22:05.251 --> 00:22:10.431
self-harming behavior together or separate and then share about it. Got it.

00:22:11.391 --> 00:22:15.691
You know, I think back back in the day. Right.

00:22:16.671 --> 00:22:20.771
Sort of that. And it's cutting comes from so many different reasons.

00:22:20.771 --> 00:22:22.151
So it's hard to say. Right.

00:22:22.691 --> 00:22:26.671
Usually it's because of deep emotional pain, but of course there's other reasons.

00:22:28.171 --> 00:22:36.891
But I also think that the pressure that's been put on kids is much worse than it was historically.

00:22:36.891 --> 00:22:45.111
I think they're also feeling the immense pressure and the scarcity that the parents are feeling.

00:22:45.831 --> 00:22:52.331
And so I'm not sure that kids decades ago felt the same kind of pressure to

00:22:52.331 --> 00:22:54.791
perform specifically. Okay.

00:22:56.471 --> 00:23:03.591
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, I say that I don't think that I,

00:23:03.751 --> 00:23:06.711
or I like to think that I don't pressure my kids.

00:23:07.551 --> 00:23:11.751
But I, you know, there's just like things that are in place of like,

00:23:11.831 --> 00:23:14.791
who's in an honors class, who's not in an honors class, you know.

00:23:16.111 --> 00:23:20.091
State testing is like something that you almost can't as a parent,

00:23:20.091 --> 00:23:21.971
like, what am I supposed to do?

00:23:22.111 --> 00:23:24.391
Like, oh, what did I get? How did I do?

00:23:24.871 --> 00:23:29.571
I know in our school, like a ton of teachers, we have like GoGuardian,

00:23:29.571 --> 00:23:31.311
it like blocks different websites and stuff.

00:23:31.431 --> 00:23:35.891
And I know a ton of teachers have blocked to the kids their ability to check

00:23:35.891 --> 00:23:39.871
their grades because they are compulsively checking.

00:23:41.071 --> 00:23:44.891
And, you know, and so it's, you know, so I feel like there's probably a lot

00:23:44.891 --> 00:23:49.271
of parents like me who think like, well, I'm not trying to put pressure on them,

00:23:49.351 --> 00:23:51.011
but obviously like they know what,

00:23:51.966 --> 00:23:57.126
makes me happy or they know what I value, you know, so you kind of get along that.

00:23:57.406 --> 00:24:02.546
So there's this book by, it's called Never Enough.

00:24:02.806 --> 00:24:06.626
You, you both have probably heard of it by Jennifer Wallace.

00:24:07.426 --> 00:24:14.486
I have not. You have not. Okay. She came, she came to speak at one of my kids' schools. Amazing.

00:24:15.186 --> 00:24:18.926
I'm always talking about her book. So Never Enough, When Achievement culture

00:24:18.926 --> 00:24:22.006
becomes toxic and what we can do about it.

00:24:23.186 --> 00:24:28.406
And she talks a lot in this book about knowing that you matter.

00:24:28.906 --> 00:24:32.766
Where do you belong? Where do you matter? Even if it's just within your family, right?

00:24:32.886 --> 00:24:37.186
Like it matters to me if you don't set the table for dinner,

00:24:37.186 --> 00:24:38.446
because then who's going to do it?

00:24:38.526 --> 00:24:44.286
Like you matter outside of the A that you got or the AP exam that you took,

00:24:44.546 --> 00:24:48.606
right? You matter outside of your achievements and your performance.

00:24:49.446 --> 00:24:53.906
But our culture, and I think this all kind of goes together, right?

00:24:54.186 --> 00:24:59.726
The pressure, the fear of not enough, like, are there going to be enough spots for my kid?

00:25:00.106 --> 00:25:07.126
The kid feeling that pressure. I think culturally, this all comes together to increase anxiety.

00:25:08.540 --> 00:25:13.680
Higher suicide rates, higher rates of self-harm, higher rates of relational

00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.340
aggression and covert bullying, cyber bullying.

00:25:17.060 --> 00:25:20.180
I think it all goes together. Yeah.

00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:24.300
And so I think naming, which a lot of people are starting to do,

00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:28.960
like, you know, this book, Never Enough, is naming, this is a problem.

00:25:29.820 --> 00:25:34.900
Achievement culture's gone too far. We're more than just what our grades are.

00:25:35.840 --> 00:25:41.440
Naming what But, you know, because friend groups are a big thing now also that

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.140
were not very common back when I was growing up.

00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:50.380
This is a very, I think it's relatively new, right? You used to have a BFF.

00:25:50.840 --> 00:25:56.260
Maybe you'd have a clique of like four, maybe three. Even the classic movie, right? Mean Girls.

00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.700
But there were three or four of them. Now, if you're scrolling social media,

00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:08.620
your clique or your friend group, it's like 15 people deep, maybe 20 in some communities.

00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:13.300
And so that's even more pressure and complicated.

00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:18.220
How do you know 15, 20 personalities and sometimes girls and boys? Yes.

00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:23.040
So I think things are ramping up a lot.

00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:31.080
Yeah. My son has an expression that he uses a lot because he has two groups of friends.

00:26:31.360 --> 00:26:37.200
And I'll often say, Joe and I are the same age.

00:26:37.340 --> 00:26:41.900
They're friends. And so my son plays music. And so he has like this other.

00:26:42.020 --> 00:26:45.900
And I'll say like, oh, you know, why didn't you ask, you know,

00:26:46.100 --> 00:26:49.500
William if he wanted to come to that event with Joey?

00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.000
And he's like, my world's mom. Got to keep my world separated.

00:26:53.940 --> 00:27:00.440
You know, and, and I know that there it's rooted in, um, he doesn't like,

00:27:00.580 --> 00:27:05.600
you can't all like each other, which I, you know, I can't, you, who like you? 15 people.

00:27:05.820 --> 00:27:11.380
That's so many people, but you know, and so I, so for him, it's like.

00:27:13.874 --> 00:27:18.034
I got to keep my world separate, you know, even though what's funny is that

00:27:18.034 --> 00:27:20.934
like a lot of them like probably would end up getting along or,

00:27:21.054 --> 00:27:24.174
you know, having some sort of common, you know, space or common interest rather,

00:27:24.394 --> 00:27:29.134
you know, but he just avoids it. And it's like, nope, separate worlds.

00:27:29.374 --> 00:27:34.414
Even like they just went to their junior prom last week and he had like his friends at one table.

00:27:34.554 --> 00:27:37.934
And then he's like, but I got to go to the other table. And I was like, what?

00:27:38.394 --> 00:27:42.274
Well, yeah, friend groups don't really mix either. No, they do not.

00:27:43.334 --> 00:27:47.454
It's just it's so bizarre to me because like my daughter

00:27:47.454 --> 00:27:51.534
is a lot like me where i

00:27:51.534 --> 00:27:54.434
she's got all she's friends with artsy kids she's

00:27:54.434 --> 00:27:57.294
friends with athletes she's friends with you know this kid this

00:27:57.294 --> 00:27:59.594
group and that group like she's friends with all these different people and

00:27:59.594 --> 00:28:03.874
she gravitates to you know a couple close friends of hers and i was definitely

00:28:03.874 --> 00:28:09.034
the same way and like i i you know i i pride myself on the fact that you know

00:28:09.034 --> 00:28:12.954
literally at the end of at the end of the month i'll be driving out to Indiana

00:28:12.954 --> 00:28:15.954
to see my best friend that I literally met on the first day of kindergarten.

00:28:16.894 --> 00:28:21.534
Yeah. And we still keep in touch with each other. We talk all the time and just

00:28:21.534 --> 00:28:24.594
found out recently that he prefers oatmeal raisin cookies to chocolate chip.

00:28:24.674 --> 00:28:26.094
And I was like, how are you my friend?

00:28:26.314 --> 00:28:29.514
Like, how did I not know this? Yeah. I know.

00:28:31.034 --> 00:28:34.854
It was just a, he's like, yeah, I take an oatmeal raisin anytime over chocolate chip.

00:28:34.914 --> 00:28:39.534
I'm like, are you, are you 90 years old what why what is going on um anyway

00:28:39.534 --> 00:28:45.174
i have strong opinions um but no like i i like but i still have people that

00:28:45.174 --> 00:28:49.054
like i talk to but like i always gravitate towards these two guys that like

00:28:49.054 --> 00:28:54.274
i've known for my entire life we were each other's weddings we're very very close to one another um,

00:28:55.469 --> 00:29:00.669
And I, I don't know where I would be without that relationship in my life, you know?

00:29:00.849 --> 00:29:06.749
And I, I hope that my children have that for themselves as they continue to grow up.

00:29:07.309 --> 00:29:12.909
Um, but I don't know if their need to keep up with the Joneses and have all

00:29:12.909 --> 00:29:15.549
these gigantic friends groups are going to get in the way of that.

00:29:15.689 --> 00:29:17.509
And I'll say this about my son.

00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:21.489
He does not, he's got his little small group of friends that he hangs out with

00:29:21.489 --> 00:29:27.289
and that's it. Like there is one group and, and I'm okay with that. And he's okay with that.

00:29:27.449 --> 00:29:29.869
And it didn't matter if I was okay with it. Cause as long as he's okay with

00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:30.509
it, that's what matters.

00:29:31.649 --> 00:29:37.929
So, um, you know, I, I don't want them to get caught up in keeping up with the Joneses.

00:29:38.009 --> 00:29:40.989
And I guess my question for you is, you know, how do I do that?

00:29:41.129 --> 00:29:45.649
How do I make sure that they're not putting themselves in situations where they're

00:29:45.649 --> 00:29:49.729
being taken advantage of or manipulated or covertly bullied? Right.

00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:55.489
Um, well, that's the million dollar question. how not to be bullied or covertly bullied.

00:29:56.149 --> 00:30:04.489
I think what you can sort of control is how they show up in those groups and

00:30:04.489 --> 00:30:07.429
help them understand why they're showing up.

00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:14.629
So I think if we do things with intentionality, it kind of can change the script a little bit.

00:30:14.869 --> 00:30:19.189
So having conversations with your kids, like, you know, curious,

00:30:19.469 --> 00:30:24.629
not sort of luxury, but like, okay, I noticed you hang out a lot with these

00:30:24.629 --> 00:30:27.509
15 people. What do you like about the group?

00:30:28.389 --> 00:30:30.289
What do you guys enjoy doing together?

00:30:31.309 --> 00:30:36.029
How do you feel after you hang out? How do you feel after? Do you feel good?

00:30:36.149 --> 00:30:37.889
Do you feel heard? Do you feel seen?

00:30:38.789 --> 00:30:42.149
Who in that group do you really connect with on a deep, is there anyone you

00:30:42.149 --> 00:30:46.629
connect with on a deeper level or these sort of friends that you could call

00:30:46.629 --> 00:30:48.709
when you missed class and you need an assignment.

00:30:50.050 --> 00:30:53.570
Is there anyone in that group that you could call if something really bad happened

00:30:53.570 --> 00:30:54.550
to someone in your family?

00:30:55.490 --> 00:30:58.850
Is there any, like, who would you? Is there, is there maybe one or two people?

00:30:59.010 --> 00:31:04.790
So within that bigger friend group, right, maybe help them to understand and explore,

00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:09.370
relationships and friendships that might be happening or have the possibility

00:31:09.370 --> 00:31:14.730
to happen on a deeper level than just like the big group picture of prom.

00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:19.370
It's, it's the guarded parent in me that is like, okay, it's 15 kids together.

00:31:19.370 --> 00:31:22.210
You know that there is a group

00:31:22.210 --> 00:31:25.530
of four of them that are talking crap about one of

00:31:25.530 --> 00:31:28.650
them yeah and there's diet right there's there's all

00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:31.850
of them kids but then there's you know fraction there's

00:31:31.850 --> 00:31:35.910
these four of the besties and those three of the besties like within that team

00:31:35.910 --> 00:31:39.130
right and then we're getting to the point where this one dated that one and

00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:41.910
then they're not dating anymore and then now they're on the outs and we can't

00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:45.790
hang out with this one because you know that'll be tense and so we'll hang out

00:31:45.790 --> 00:31:49.270
with this one on friday and that one on saturday and it's like oh my god And

00:31:49.270 --> 00:31:51.770
that's really hard to navigate as an adult,

00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:55.630
let alone as a middle schooler or a high schooler. Yeah.

00:31:55.930 --> 00:32:02.130
Right. How in the world do you navigate 15, 20 relationships and dynamics?

00:32:02.570 --> 00:32:08.410
Yeah. So I like to try to help the teens that I work with and my kids understand,

00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:11.690
okay, within that bigger group, what do you get out of being in the group?

00:32:11.830 --> 00:32:13.790
Do you actually enjoy being in that group?

00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:18.710
Or, you know, tell me if it is. Is it for status? For some people, it is.

00:32:19.350 --> 00:32:22.970
And that's okay. I'm not here to say that you can't have a big group for status,

00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:25.970
but understand if that's why you're doing it,

00:32:26.518 --> 00:32:29.518
Yeah. Because you feel anxious to not have that status.

00:32:29.878 --> 00:32:34.678
Yeah. I have identical twin girls and one could care less.

00:32:34.818 --> 00:32:39.658
I mean, she just couldn't. It just doesn't matter to her. Like she is very content.

00:32:40.298 --> 00:32:44.038
You know, she has a couple of friends. She's very happy with that.

00:32:44.458 --> 00:32:50.358
Whereas the other one has quite like a wandering, like she's sort of like everybody

00:32:50.358 --> 00:32:51.598
has more friends than me.

00:32:51.838 --> 00:32:55.738
Everybody's doing better things than, you know. And they're still not allowed

00:32:55.738 --> 00:33:01.358
to have social media. And I really thought that that was going to help, you know.

00:33:01.478 --> 00:33:05.158
But it's just like, you know, not everything is social media because,

00:33:05.338 --> 00:33:07.218
like, she goes to school every day.

00:33:07.218 --> 00:33:10.938
And she's looking around. And she's seeing everybody with it,

00:33:11.198 --> 00:33:15.518
you know, with one another. But she just has this idea, like this romanticized

00:33:15.518 --> 00:33:18.278
version of everyone has 25 friends.

00:33:18.318 --> 00:33:21.978
And they all just love each other and do everything, you know.

00:33:21.978 --> 00:33:28.878
So a lot of middle school, middle schoolers and teenagers have that perception

00:33:28.878 --> 00:33:32.798
that they just desperately want a friend group.

00:33:33.078 --> 00:33:41.118
And they don't necessarily understand that, A, what looks fantastic and fun and lovely maybe isn't.

00:33:41.238 --> 00:33:43.298
And as a parent, you can point some of that out.

00:33:43.518 --> 00:33:47.418
Like with 15 people, there's no way there are 15 deep connections.

00:33:47.418 --> 00:33:51.698
It looks that way, but it's not. And that's why I try to help them see,

00:33:51.858 --> 00:33:53.198
like, OK, within that group,

00:33:53.378 --> 00:33:57.778
who might you form a deeper connection with, even if you're sort of a fringe

00:33:57.778 --> 00:34:01.078
member of the group, if there's someone who's desperate to be in the group.

00:34:01.318 --> 00:34:02.678
Right. Some people don't care. Right.

00:34:02.998 --> 00:34:08.318
I also try to encourage, I actually like what your son is doing,

00:34:08.458 --> 00:34:09.578
right, with the two worlds.

00:34:09.878 --> 00:34:14.078
Yeah. I actually think it's a really good idea to diversify friend groups.

00:34:15.318 --> 00:34:21.318
I really get nervous when someone has, one of my clients has only one group.

00:34:21.718 --> 00:34:24.158
I'm only friends with people who I go to school with.

00:34:25.483 --> 00:34:28.863
That's dangerous when there's a friend group because when there's a big friend

00:34:28.863 --> 00:34:32.643
group, there's a higher chance someone's going to be canceled, right?

00:34:32.863 --> 00:34:35.763
And if all your eggs are in that basket, well,

00:34:36.003 --> 00:34:43.183
if you don't have a friend in soccer or a friend in church or at art camp or

00:34:43.183 --> 00:34:45.683
your cousins, I don't really care who it is,

00:34:45.803 --> 00:34:52.163
but diversifying where you can get those relationship needs met and not having it all in one basket.

00:34:54.043 --> 00:34:56.923
There's also an interesting thing that

00:34:56.923 --> 00:34:59.663
happens and and i think i talked to

00:34:59.663 --> 00:35:02.583
my to my daughter about this the other day and it had to do with

00:35:02.583 --> 00:35:05.423
um you know they're about to be high school seniors right

00:35:05.423 --> 00:35:08.203
and and and their jamie's son is

00:35:08.203 --> 00:35:10.943
also you know in that boat and there's this idea of

00:35:10.943 --> 00:35:13.543
nostalgia where it's like those 180 days are going

00:35:13.543 --> 00:35:16.403
to go quickly but it's like i said to my daughter i said you're going to get to

00:35:16.403 --> 00:35:20.263
may of next year and all

00:35:20.263 --> 00:35:23.623
the bullshit's just going to disappear right there's just

00:35:23.623 --> 00:35:26.523
not like the clicks and the this

00:35:26.523 --> 00:35:29.543
one that like that like it just doesn't exist

00:35:29.543 --> 00:35:32.563
anymore there's this very interesting dynamic that happens

00:35:32.563 --> 00:35:38.183
right at that moment where where like the kids start to to realize like okay

00:35:38.183 --> 00:35:44.703
this is all ending and i've been doing this since i'm five with some of the

00:35:44.703 --> 00:35:49.703
same people so maybe i should live and enjoy the moment and stay out of all the BS.

00:35:49.703 --> 00:35:53.223
It just kind of naturally, organically happens.

00:35:53.263 --> 00:35:56.143
I don't know why. I'd love to study it and bottle it.

00:35:56.723 --> 00:36:00.943
But I think that's the moment where hopefully they'll start to realize like,

00:36:01.063 --> 00:36:04.923
okay, these are like, your people are those people, right?

00:36:06.283 --> 00:36:10.703
And whether it's a small friend group or a larger or two separate groups that

00:36:10.703 --> 00:36:11.903
you're keeping in different worlds.

00:36:13.323 --> 00:36:16.983
That's an interesting thing that Jamie said. It's like, maybe those kids do

00:36:16.983 --> 00:36:23.243
have some things in common they probably do yeah yeah i also think um.

00:36:25.618 --> 00:36:31.538
As far as parents go, right, we were talking a lot about parents and our sort

00:36:31.538 --> 00:36:36.198
of enmeshment or over-involvements in our kids' success.

00:36:36.638 --> 00:36:41.858
And even our, you know, this relational aggression comes out when there's an

00:36:41.858 --> 00:36:48.458
over-involvement in our kids' success, either academically, athletically, or socially, right?

00:36:48.938 --> 00:36:52.798
The relational aggression usually is like a power player power dynamic.

00:36:54.078 --> 00:36:57.198
And um i think the parents start

00:36:57.198 --> 00:37:00.858
to get fired up when we start to see fractures within

00:37:00.858 --> 00:37:03.878
friend groups oh 100 right or we start

00:37:03.878 --> 00:37:06.718
to see you know kids that were besties at

00:37:06.718 --> 00:37:15.418
seven well now that they're 13 uh you know johnny wants to play softball and

00:37:15.418 --> 00:37:20.418
you know maddie wants to play something else or video games right so as parents

00:37:20.418 --> 00:37:24.018
when we start to see the fracture happening that is pretty developmentally normal,

00:37:24.398 --> 00:37:27.018
I think we've gotten more involved than ever.

00:37:27.718 --> 00:37:36.438
And we forget that six months down the road, what seemed like DEFCON 5 for Johnny

00:37:36.438 --> 00:37:39.698
and Maddie or whatever I named them is no longer that.

00:37:40.118 --> 00:37:44.058
But as adults, we get over-involved and we kind of blow shit up.

00:37:45.558 --> 00:37:49.338
Am I going to be beeped out? No. No, I love it. I'm leaving it.

00:37:50.698 --> 00:37:56.558
I'm like, oops. You too be damned. So we have to, as the adults,

00:37:57.058 --> 00:38:03.578
model emotional maturity and model that we can handle disruptions in friendships.

00:38:04.418 --> 00:38:09.298
Now, it's a fine line, right? Because I don't want a parent saying to their

00:38:09.298 --> 00:38:15.218
kid, oh, boys will be boys, or it's middle school. That's very dismissive. And that's not helpful.

00:38:15.478 --> 00:38:19.238
But you can say, this is painful and this hurts. And I know you and Johnny were

00:38:19.238 --> 00:38:20.558
best, best, best, best friends.

00:38:20.998 --> 00:38:25.158
And it's normal to have shifts in your relationships. And I've definitely said

00:38:25.158 --> 00:38:28.098
that, yeah, it's middle school. You know, I've said it.

00:38:28.958 --> 00:38:32.378
So many parents do. I've said it to students that I teach. I'm like,

00:38:32.438 --> 00:38:36.138
look, this is middle school. This is what happens. You know, and it's unfortunate.

00:38:36.458 --> 00:38:42.818
And sometimes things like, once again, time has a way of healing all wounds, right?

00:38:43.178 --> 00:38:46.038
Just give it a little bit of time and things kind of smooth themselves out.

00:38:46.038 --> 00:38:48.498
When parents jump in and blow it up.

00:38:49.618 --> 00:38:55.578
Right. And they're, you know, they can create, they add to the drama instead of helping the drama.

00:38:56.018 --> 00:38:59.738
Yeah. Right. And that, I think we have to stop that as well.

00:38:59.878 --> 00:39:02.578
We have to learn that our kids can handle some distress.

00:39:03.238 --> 00:39:06.938
We can give them the skills to try to manage on their own.

00:39:06.998 --> 00:39:10.538
And we can intervene when it's absolutely necessary. And that's going to depend

00:39:10.538 --> 00:39:13.518
on the situation, the kid's temperament, the kid's personality,

00:39:13.698 --> 00:39:15.058
lots of different things. Yeah.

00:39:15.298 --> 00:39:18.658
But we do have to keep in mind that, yes, it's middle school.

00:39:18.958 --> 00:39:20.538
Things can change like that.

00:39:21.378 --> 00:39:26.298
Things can change a month. My daughter has been having some different,

00:39:26.558 --> 00:39:28.898
like just some stomach issues and medical.

00:39:29.258 --> 00:39:34.018
So she has a doctor's appointment coming up. And she said, Mom, I'm so worried.

00:39:34.418 --> 00:39:39.018
I'm just so worried about going. morning. And I, you know, and I said,

00:39:39.198 --> 00:39:42.938
Oh, I'm so, you know, I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't know.

00:39:44.078 --> 00:39:47.658
We were in the car. And she said, Are you joking?

00:39:48.979 --> 00:39:52.699
Are you, are you joking or serious? And it was like one of those moments where

00:39:52.699 --> 00:39:59.599
you realize like I'm, I'm, I'm with middle schoolers all day long where no one really is serious.

00:39:59.839 --> 00:40:03.079
And you know, now their new term is like, you're a glazer.

00:40:03.339 --> 00:40:06.259
Like you can't even give someone a compliment where you're just,

00:40:06.259 --> 00:40:08.359
I said like, you're glazing them.

00:40:08.439 --> 00:40:11.319
And I'm like, we call that blowing smoke up someone's, you know what,

00:40:11.479 --> 00:40:12.919
right? That's essentially what it is.

00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:17.559
And I, and I really, and so, you know, for other parents who maybe aren't in

00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.099
middle school all day long, be like, what do you mean?

00:40:20.179 --> 00:40:24.359
Of course I'm, you know, and so I have, I, I've tried to meet her with like.

00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:26.619
Oh no, of course, you know, of course.

00:40:26.799 --> 00:40:32.039
And just keep it like really calm and low, but I, um, I can fly off the handle too.

00:40:32.179 --> 00:40:35.459
So I'm, you know, I'm like the, you know, like what, what did they say?

00:40:35.619 --> 00:40:38.339
What are, you know, it's hard.

00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:41.399
Part of that change. So we've got, you know, naming it to tame it.

00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:45.859
Yes. We've got, you know, for just individuals, right, parents,

00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.699
but I think more institutional change.

00:40:48.939 --> 00:40:55.499
So like really having some more formal, structured education for educators and

00:40:55.499 --> 00:40:58.619
administrators around what is relational aggression,

00:40:58.859 --> 00:41:03.079
right, to helping your kid name it, but also helping the people that are with

00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:07.119
the kids all day understand what's happening and being able to look for some

00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:11.799
signs or some evidence if that is something that's occurring.

00:41:11.919 --> 00:41:15.419
Yeah um so we've got that we've

00:41:15.419 --> 00:41:18.439
got um i like teaching kids to

00:41:18.439 --> 00:41:21.279
diversify their groups and and and

00:41:21.279 --> 00:41:25.899
understand what they're getting from different relationships in their life that's

00:41:25.899 --> 00:41:30.359
a great that's a huge i love that by the way like i love the questions you were

00:41:30.359 --> 00:41:33.159
asking like how does that you know do you feel seen like is there someone that

00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.519
question you asked like hey if something were to happen and you needed to call

00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:39.899
someone like who in the friend group would you call? I love that. I love that.

00:41:40.299 --> 00:41:43.719
If there's, if there's someone in the friend group that you just call for homework

00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:44.979
assignments, that's fine.

00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:50.419
That is a different relationship than the person that you might call if your cat dies.

00:41:51.500 --> 00:41:57.020
And that's okay to have those differences. And that helps you not put all your

00:41:57.020 --> 00:42:02.220
eggs in one basket and to understand that friendships and relationships are very nuanced.

00:42:03.020 --> 00:42:09.760
I also think we have to start much earlier on teaching conflict resolution.

00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:17.080
And understanding how we feel and appropriate ways to express that.

00:42:17.240 --> 00:42:22.580
So what happens with girls a lot, right, is we've been sort of taught to be

00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:26.920
nice and not to be angry. And if you're angry, don't start yelling and screaming

00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:28.080
and hooting and hollering, right?

00:42:28.180 --> 00:42:34.460
You're going to really sort of covertly have some resentment and go against another female.

00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:40.980
And so teaching that like the range of emotions is okay and how to express those emotions,

00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:46.720
and say with boys they can't be sad if there's like a relationship rupture well why not,

00:42:47.260 --> 00:42:51.260
maybe they can be and maybe we should talk about that it's okay to be sad yeah

00:42:51.260 --> 00:42:55.340
you feel like we're losing a friendship yeah and this is a whole different conversation

00:42:55.340 --> 00:43:00.720
for another time let's go back to you know everyone gets a trophy and the watering

00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:05.800
down of who's in what national Honor Society because the standards are so.

00:43:07.389 --> 00:43:13.289
Vague, not necessarily vague, but like everyone gets in and grades are inflated

00:43:13.289 --> 00:43:15.149
and who's doing what and where,

00:43:15.349 --> 00:43:18.989
like with that academic pressure, like I think starting earlier would be good

00:43:18.989 --> 00:43:23.069
to be like, hey, not everybody's going to be the cream of the crop and the top of the list.

00:43:23.409 --> 00:43:26.709
That's reserved for the kids that are the cream of the crop and the top of the list.

00:43:27.229 --> 00:43:31.569
Absolutely. Not everyone's going to med school or law school or building a business,

00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:33.389
right? Yeah. That's okay.

00:43:34.009 --> 00:43:36.709
It's 100 okay and i think if

00:43:36.709 --> 00:43:39.469
we if we are listening to our kids and

00:43:39.469 --> 00:43:44.309
having these conversations i think that that ultimately we're gonna help break

00:43:44.309 --> 00:43:48.289
the cycle and have you know the next group of parents who hopefully will not

00:43:48.289 --> 00:43:53.409
be doing all the things um and dealing with uh with you know the idea of maycember

00:43:53.409 --> 00:43:56.849
and the 6 000 things that everybody has to do no bed parties.

00:43:57.949 --> 00:44:01.409
Yo i i don't like i i don't

00:44:01.409 --> 00:44:04.389
know i i yeah i'm i'm thoroughly

00:44:04.389 --> 00:44:07.469
frightened i have boys so maybe they don't do bed parties

00:44:07.469 --> 00:44:10.909
do boys you may not that

00:44:10.909 --> 00:44:14.569
i've seen i don't think so i don't think they do i don't think there's been

00:44:14.569 --> 00:44:18.129
a thing i think it's like you wear a sweatshirt you hold up a pennant and you're

00:44:18.129 --> 00:44:24.189
good you do that you do this yeah oh my goodness well dr noel santorelli we

00:44:24.189 --> 00:44:27.869
appreciate you and every minute of this, um,

00:44:28.049 --> 00:44:31.289
talk with you, we could keep you here forever and ever hours and hours.

00:44:31.749 --> 00:44:35.909
Thank you so much. Um, I really wanted you to fix my entire life and you didn't.

00:44:36.149 --> 00:44:39.069
So we'll just, we'll just have to have you back.

00:44:39.349 --> 00:44:41.589
Um, so yeah, so absolutely.

00:44:41.949 --> 00:44:46.969
Uh, you know, uh, doc, I, I appreciate you, uh, very much and for being willing

00:44:46.969 --> 00:44:49.869
to come back on this season, because again, you were so well received,

00:44:50.089 --> 00:44:54.049
like people were waiting. So now we're giving you double Dr. Santorelli.

00:44:55.049 --> 00:44:57.729
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll see you all next time.

00:44:57.680 --> 00:45:36.084
Music.