Part I with Dr. Noelle Santorelli, Relational Aggression and Mean Girl Moms

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Music.

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Okay. Well, the excitement is palpable. Is that what it is? I don't know.

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But hey, we're recording.

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Didn't know if you knew. Here we are. What's up, buddy? How are you? How are you?

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It is a wonderful day to be listening and participating in the Balancing Act

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podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome, one and all.

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I am Jamie Wacco here with Joe Vitale, and we are so, so excited.

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This has been a long-awaited guest of ours.

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We had interviewed her once before and we did not get enough time with her.

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We just didn't. And, and I've thought about her all year long.

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So I'm, I'm so thrilled to welcome our guest today.

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Hey, Dr. Noelle Santorelli. What's going on? Hi again.

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I, I, and I also have to tell you, there are so many of our,

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you know, in a small circle, as we got this started that once we had you on,

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they're like, when are you having her on again? Could she be on again?

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Like you, you were so, and we immediately,

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as soon as we were done we're like we have to have her on again like we have to find a

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way we have to do this and we're so gracious and and

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thankful that you were willing to uh to join us

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again because like so many people are resonating

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with what you're talking about see this cover i don't even know

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where to go with this conversation this conversation is like

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and jamie's not a trier so she will not relate to

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this analogy this is like when i go to the

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ice cream shop and there are so many choices that

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i get to choose and i don't know what to do because i have so

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many questions i want to ask yeah but i don't know where to

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start so not you know that's my

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analogy um because jamie always gets the

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same thing but but i know she has a lot of questions too

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um we're just super paths we can go down with this topic and this topic is so

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big and it's resonating with so many people um that there are just so many avenues

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we can go down right we've got grown-up path we've got the child path.

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We've got the school path. We've got the sports path. I mean,

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we've got the female versus male path.

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So yeah, complicated topic. Yeah. And we're all kind of in that space too.

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And we're also in the midst of, what did you call it? Maycember last time,

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Jamie? Is that what we talked about?

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Maycember. Yeah. And even in your post, if you follow Dr. Santorelli on Instagram,

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she posted today like, hey, here's all the things that I'm doing.

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And I'm like, yep, that's kind of how our schedules are. It's pickups and drop-offs

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and this and that. So like, I know...

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When my stress level goes up that I struggle with things a little bit more because

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it's hard for me sometimes to regulate.

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So, um, I'm just, uh, you know, I, I, I want to be a sponge and soak it all

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in. So I'm just excited to have you and I'll stop babbling now.

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Um, yeah. No, you won't. No, no, I won't.

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The last time, like we have three people whose last names end in a vowel.

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Yeah. We could talk forever. Yeah, we are so Italian. We are just, yes.

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All we need is a- Hands flying, conversation going.

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Yep, all we need is. So can you, for our new listeners, can you give us a little

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bit of your background? You know, where did you start? What it is that you do?

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Yep. So I'm a clinical psychologist. So I have my doctorate in clinical psychology,

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which there's so many, therapy has become very mainstream now,

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I think with social media, which I think is great on one hand,

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I think on the other hand,

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it kind of confuses a little bit who does what and what exactly is what, right?

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So we've got therapists, we've got licensed marriage and family therapists,

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we've got licensed professional counselors, we've got social workers,

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we've got coaches, we've got psychiatrists who prescribe medication.

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And then we've got psychologists who don't prescribe medication,

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but we have our doctorate degree in psychology.

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There's also lots of different realms of psychology. Mine is clinical,

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meaning I've worked historically with psychopathology.

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So not developmental psychology, which is like the psychology of how we develop,

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but I work primarily with psychopathology. So that's mental health diagnoses.

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And even more specifically, I took a big interest in family systems work,

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which is pathology among the family and how different systems within a family work together.

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So that's a lot. And so my training is clinical psychology, family systems,

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and personality disorders.

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And I work in private practice for the past 13 years, and I'm adjunct faculty

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for Emory School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry.

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Um, but in my private practice,

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because of my interest in systems and personality pathology,

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I started to notice out in the wild some personality characteristics among different

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systems that were concerning to me.

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Can you give us an example of what you mean by like a family system?

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So family systems just, you know, it could just be mom, dad, kids.

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It could be two moms, two dads, kids. It could be the immediate family.

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So mom, dad, kids, and then the extended family and how that interplays or intersects

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with your current family. Sometimes we call that the family of origin,

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the family where you come from and how that impacts your current family system.

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But it gets very complicated because you're not dealing with one person or one personality.

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You're dealing with an entire system that sometimes can have upwards of 20 people.

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Because you're also then looking at the husband's family or the wife's family, right?

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And so there's a lot of people and these situations get really messy and complicated.

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And so that would be, you know, when you do family therapy, lots of times you're

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looking at family systems or I work with one person one-on-one,

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but I'm looking at how they.

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Sort of how the system impacts their functioning because with the,

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with family systems, sometimes no one works or lives in, in,

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in, in, like on their own, right?

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There's always something impacting you.

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And so we sort of take a, take a wider lens approach than just the individual

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client that's in our office. Okay.

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Yeah. Joe and I often talk about some of the issues that we've had in the past,

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specifically to our parents and being part of the sandwich generation.

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And, you know, something that, you know, we sort of come, like,

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when you're, like, at the end of the hallway, and now you're just,

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like, ramming your head into the wall,

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is that sort of inability to move the other people.

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It's like, I'm on board, and my spouse is on board, but, like,

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my spouse's parents are,

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like, a no, or, like, my parents are, you know, And then how that affects us

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as a spouse and then also how it affects you as a parent and then trickles down

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to your kids. So in that general.

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Yep. That's exactly it. It's based.

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Okay. Okay. Do you ever have anybody who brings in, so I know you said you do

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one-on-one, but also family.

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Have you ever had anybody who actually brings in like the husband,

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the wife, and then like their, their parents? Oh, sure. Absolutely.

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Yep. Extended family sessions.

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Wow. It would be hard for me to even imagine my parents, like,

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of, like just their eight, you know, my parents are almost 80.

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Joe's parents are some, you know, similar a couple of years,

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you know, a little older, not much though.

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You know, so the boomers, if you will, like it's really like,

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it's crazy to imagine them accepting any form of therapy.

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I've had, I've had, you know, grandparents bring in their adult children, right?

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And then the adult children bring in their children. So the grandchildren, right?

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And we will do a family systems session or it's family therapy.

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And so it's, it can get a lot more dynamic and complicated. Sure.

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Um, I also sweat a lot more.

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They're very intense. Right. Um, but it makes me highly attuned to different

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systems that operate outside of family systems, right?

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We've got work systems. We've got educational systems. We've got systems everywhere.

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And so that's when I started to realize in conjunction with my personality pathology

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work, oh my gosh, there's a system going on right now that.

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Is really, really not healthy. And that was in one of my kids' schools where I first noticed it.

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And that's where the sort of, quote unquote, mean girl mom dynamic came up that

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I started talking about because I started noticing this was a huge systemic

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problem that the systems involved were the school, the parents, and the kids.

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And how did they interact with one another in that system?

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Like you're, you're saying it's something that you witnessed.

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So like, was, was each group playing its own role, um, for the most part?

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I think so. But I think, I think each group had its own role,

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but each group affected the other system very intensely. Yeah.

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Right. So, but noticing that, you know, this sort of middle school-ish behavior

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that historically we have very much looked at it as, okay, this is just middle school behavior.

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We were now having schools, teachers, administrators, parents.

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There was a lot more involvement going on than your classic middle school or

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high school turbulent teen behaviors.

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Or friend group dynamics. It was starting, I was starting to realize it was

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a lot more complex than that.

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And what exactly, I'm sure there's not one thing, but is there any few things

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that you think are the reasons behind that?

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I think, yeah, there's, it's multifaceted. I think that one of the primary things

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is, of course, our access to technology and communication.

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So what used to happen at school and would be between just kids at school now

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carries over to home life.

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So if you're, if you're involved in, and let me just explain,

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relational aggression is what this is all.

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Yeah, I was just going to say, I know that that was what, so if we could define

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that term, because it's so important to our talk with you.

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So the cornerstone of all of this is something called relational aggression,

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which is a psychological term for social bullying or covert bullying.

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So that is sort of bullying by, in a more subtle way, using things like manipulation,

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gossip, backstabbing, gatekeeping,

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really sort of power type power plays. to,

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control your status in the group and control other people's statuses in groups and relationships.

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And so everyone, you know, it's a tale as old as time that middle school is hard.

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And when people say middle school's hard, what they mostly mean,

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yeah, academics is hard, but

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what they mostly mean is the social landscape gets hard. It's the worst.

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Right? It's the worst. It's just the worst.

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We all know what they mean. Yeah. And we've talked about this often, too.

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And I'm by no means a brain expert or anything like that. But kids' brains are still developing.

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They're going through puberty. Some of them are dealing with extreme ADHD.

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Their hormone levels are off. They're figuring out if they like boys or girls or both.

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Uh there's just a lot of and there's also a lot of societal pressures that you

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know come with that about kids you know finding their place and that's very

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hard to do especially at 12 and 13 years old.

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There is light at the end of the tunnel right because

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we have um you know our kids are are 16

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very soon to be mine are very soon to be 17 um

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and it's it's definitely something that we see and witness

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on a daily basis right there's kids that

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are either starving for attention or they're excluding

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the one kid who's not on the specific travel team that

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the other kids are on or the one that's in

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the club that's not that shouldn't have been or or the one that made honor society

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who did who should have made honor society but didn't like there's so many multi-faceted

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levels to it that the kids don't really they can't really see past it until

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they get to high school and things start to start to thin out a little bit is

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what I like to say. Right. Um.

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At the same time, I've, I've witnessed my own children have their own struggles

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with, you know, within their peer and friend groups that have caused,

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you know, some, some tension amongst them.

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It's mainly with my daughter, you know, not, it's not, you know,

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regarding relationships or, or like, you know, dating or anything like that,

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but it's more about like decisions that people make and why people are hanging

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out with this group and not that group.

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And it just becomes like a big, like power struggle, tug of war.

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And sometimes it's in three, four different directions and it's hard to land on your feet.

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And relational, I'll point this out, is it does not mean romantic necessarily, right?

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The relational aggression means any aggression within relationships or where

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relationships are targeted.

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So it can be exactly what you said. like we don't like that Susie's talking

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to Mary's group at lunch so let's all not talk to Susie.

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Boys it can but it doesn't have to do with

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the more the more like the more we talk about this and I listen and I see the

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things that you post I just I'm constantly thinking about like okay is this

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is this because that we are the let's do all the things generation of parents

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like like are we recausing this is basically what I'm getting to.

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We're trying to do all the things.

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We're trying to get the kids involved in all the different activities and everybody's

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got to have their own niche of something that they do, whether it be theater

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or music or sports or academics or whatever it is.

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Everybody's looking for that edge that they have on the other kids.

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And are we creating that for our children?

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I mean, I hate to say this, but I think we are

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certainly not helping and we are most likely

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largely contributing i think

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the pendulum pendulum really swung right we had our boomer parents where you

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know therapy who needs therapy or you know you're sad uh i don't know yeah go

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listen to some you know who knows go in your go uh go rub some emotional dirt

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on it Get over it. Get over it.

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Get over it. Get over it, right? Yeah.

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So I think a lot of us were raised with that kind of mentality.

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And then I think the pendulum really swung, right?

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It swung to more supportive parenting, more engaged parenting.

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I worry that we're getting to a place now of enmeshed parenting,

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even more so than engaged parenting. Can you explain what that is, please?

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So enmeshed parenting from, you know, and this isn't in a textbook anywhere,

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but when you have an enmeshed relationship, it's where you don't know where

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you begin and the other person starts.

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You are overly connected emotionally to the other person.

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So like, I don't know what's best for me unless I know it's good for you.

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Or what's good for me has to be good for you.

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It's hard to tease out how you're separate from me.

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Are we talking about more of like a friend relationship between the parent and

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child and not a parent-child relationship?

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It doesn't have to be. It can be. Sometimes it can cross over into that,

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but sometimes it can be, you know, I really value, um,

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academics and therefore you must value academics above everything else. Got it.

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Okay. So it can be like, you know, let's be buddies and hang out and I'm so

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interested in you liking me that I'm just going to be more of a friend.

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It can look like that, but it can also look like your interests,

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activities, desires, goals are going to match mine.

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And I think when we start to get too enmeshed with our children,

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that line starts to blur between,

00:17:50.838 --> 00:18:01.718
you become overly invested in even the small things like what team does your

00:18:01.718 --> 00:18:04.178
kid play on? What school are you at?

00:18:04.678 --> 00:18:10.818
What did you get on your SATs? it starts to sort of breed this level of competition,

00:18:10.818 --> 00:18:16.358
I think, between the parents that then trickles down to the kids.

00:18:18.458 --> 00:18:24.658
So I think we kind of swung that pendulum from boomers that are like, go figure it out.

00:18:24.898 --> 00:18:28.678
Then we had our generation that's like, no, that wasn't cool.

00:18:28.858 --> 00:18:31.778
Like, I want to be there for my kid. I want to be supportive.

00:18:31.778 --> 00:18:33.318
I want to hear all the things.

00:18:33.318 --> 00:18:39.858
But I think for some parents, that's crossed over into being overly enmeshed

00:18:39.858 --> 00:18:41.598
where you're not giving them independence,

00:18:41.598 --> 00:18:47.298
where you're not giving them freedom, and where you're micromanaging things

00:18:47.298 --> 00:18:51.658
even as far down to their social standing in relationships. Yeah.

00:18:52.668 --> 00:18:56.948
Like it's crossed into that level for some families.

00:18:57.108 --> 00:18:59.608
I also think and talk a lot about

00:18:59.608 --> 00:19:04.948
sort of this, this feeling of scarcity that I think a lot of parents,

00:19:05.328 --> 00:19:09.568
I have to say nowadays, because I wasn't a parent back in the days,

00:19:09.748 --> 00:19:14.308
but there's this scarcity mentality that there's only so many spots.

00:19:14.308 --> 00:19:18.008
There's only so many you know um admissions

00:19:18.008 --> 00:19:20.848
into certain colleges there's only so much

00:19:20.848 --> 00:19:27.768
to go around and i need to make sure my kid gets one of those spots yeah so

00:19:27.768 --> 00:19:34.248
i i scarcity too you know i i think you're kind of hitting the nail on the head

00:19:34.248 --> 00:19:38.128
and i'll you know own up to it i think a lot of times Like I,

00:19:38.128 --> 00:19:40.748
I don't want to say I live or die by my kids,

00:19:40.848 --> 00:19:47.708
but I really can feel like when they're feeling pain or when they're upset or when they're having,

00:19:47.948 --> 00:19:51.268
you know, a difficult time, like part of me, and this is like,

00:19:51.488 --> 00:19:54.488
you know, the way, the way my dad was, it's like, I just want to fix it.

00:19:54.808 --> 00:19:58.148
Right. And sometimes you can't fix it. Time fixes it.

00:19:58.708 --> 00:20:04.668
Um, and, and, or, or, you know, just, just another situation fixes it.

00:20:04.668 --> 00:20:09.888
And like, I really don't like when my children are experiencing difficulties.

00:20:09.888 --> 00:20:17.148
I'm not going to fix it for them, but I know I empathetically feel bad for them. Oh, absolutely.

00:20:17.728 --> 00:20:23.728
And I get where this, and so this relational aggression that I talk about with,

00:20:23.968 --> 00:20:27.268
which is pretty developmentally appropriate for middle schoolers,

00:20:27.408 --> 00:20:32.308
even high schoolers, we We don't really expect to see it in adults,

00:20:32.308 --> 00:20:40.768
but we do see it in adults, and I particularly see it in parent groups,

00:20:40.768 --> 00:20:45.748
which is surprising to a lot of people because,

00:20:45.908 --> 00:20:53.028
again, we don't expect to deal with bullying or gossip or manipulation or triangulation

00:20:53.028 --> 00:20:57.068
when we're in our adult selves.

00:20:57.068 --> 00:21:01.888
But I think it's not driven by these parents being bad people.

00:21:01.888 --> 00:21:04.068
I think it's actually kind of the opposite.

00:21:04.388 --> 00:21:10.828
They're so invested in everything feels so dramatic and so important.

00:21:10.828 --> 00:21:18.028
And like everything depends on this child's happiness, success status that I

00:21:18.028 --> 00:21:24.588
think we all go a little crazy over some things that might not be that big of a deal.

00:21:25.468 --> 00:21:31.548
And so I think it drives lots of competition and lots of competition drives

00:21:31.548 --> 00:21:34.168
a lot of relational aggression. Hmm.

00:21:35.699 --> 00:21:40.839
Well, sure. I mean, it's like a flex, if you will, to be able to say,

00:21:40.979 --> 00:21:47.039
like, my child's varsity this or, you know, my kid is in the top 10 percent

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:48.859
or, you know, whatever that might be.

00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:54.619
And there's a lot of, like, value that's placed on that for many people in,

00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:57.259
you know, in the parenting space, for sure.

00:21:57.659 --> 00:22:02.579
I hate to say, like, especially with sports, but, you know. Yeah,

00:22:02.739 --> 00:22:03.579
especially with sports.

00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:09.519
A lot. A lot, a lot. I've, you know, I always, I, I don't really sports much.

00:22:09.639 --> 00:22:10.879
And like my kids don't sports much.

00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:15.019
Although as you're talking, I'm like, oh gosh, like I don't sports and my kids

00:22:15.019 --> 00:22:20.059
don't sports. Like, is that hereditary or is that me like making a mistake?

00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:25.999
Am I now have a meshed my. Yeah. And, and I do, and I have experienced some,

00:22:25.999 --> 00:22:30.059
some, some things this year with my kids and with sports and my kids are,

00:22:30.239 --> 00:22:32.519
and they will tell you this, they're average athletes.

00:22:32.919 --> 00:22:38.059
They're slightly above average athletes. They are not like, I'm going to play in college.

00:22:38.199 --> 00:22:41.339
People are looking at me kind of athletes. They play the sports for fun.

00:22:41.439 --> 00:22:42.539
They like to be part of a team.

00:22:42.699 --> 00:22:44.979
They like the girls that the girls and boys that they're out there with.

00:22:45.639 --> 00:22:49.239
And, you know, I came to this realization this year, you know,

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.719
with my son, like, is he happy?

00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:56.779
Yes. And he is. And wherever he plays, I'm fine with, because I also know,

00:22:56.919 --> 00:22:59.459
and he also knows that there are players, he plays baseball,

00:22:59.879 --> 00:23:01.239
there are players that are better than him.

00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:08.599
And it also pains me to hear that there are children of other parents that might

00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:13.359
be a little bit younger or, you know, or they're the kid,

00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:17.039
the basketball coach's kid or this person's kid.

00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:19.199
It's like, oh, well, they're out there because of this and who they know.

00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:20.879
And then I'm looking on the field and I'm like.

00:23:21.782 --> 00:23:25.542
These kids are good. Like they're, they, they deserve to be out there.

00:23:25.682 --> 00:23:28.802
So you can't like a lot of us, we start to like bash and say,

00:23:28.882 --> 00:23:31.402
Oh, it's because of this person's son or that person's son.

00:23:32.022 --> 00:23:38.682
Well, no, actually that's not it. And I take a lot of, I try to take a lot of,

00:23:38.702 --> 00:23:42.122
of solace in the fact that when, when a baseball coach has a parent meeting,

00:23:42.222 --> 00:23:45.422
it says it is my decision to put the nine best players out there on the field.

00:23:45.842 --> 00:23:50.382
And if my son's not out on the field, he's not one of the nine best players. And I'm okay with that.

00:23:51.702 --> 00:23:54.902
That's it. Like, I'm okay with that because that's the coach that decision makes.

00:23:55.122 --> 00:23:56.362
That's the coach's decision.

00:23:57.002 --> 00:24:01.322
So. I don't, I wouldn't think that the person that's the coach,

00:24:01.442 --> 00:24:04.782
like to me, that makes complete and total sense. A hundred, a hundred percent.

00:24:05.042 --> 00:24:09.002
You're the coach. You are teaching people how to play this game.

00:24:09.422 --> 00:24:15.562
Why wouldn't your child be like, they had you one-on-one at home for weeks,

00:24:15.722 --> 00:24:18.102
months, years, teaching them how to do it.

00:24:18.322 --> 00:24:23.082
I would imagine that like you were constantly like throwing and catching and jumping and running.

00:24:23.242 --> 00:24:29.042
Right. So you have the most practice that of anyone. Why wouldn't you be better than everybody else?

00:24:29.802 --> 00:24:32.762
True. Instead, I just, that would be, that's how my mind works.

00:24:32.782 --> 00:24:35.242
Like not, oh, you got that because you're the coach's kid, but like,

00:24:35.462 --> 00:24:37.782
wow, you had a one-on-one coach your whole life.

00:24:38.382 --> 00:24:41.622
Yeah. And, and a lot of these kids are gifted athletes.

00:24:41.902 --> 00:24:45.082
Like you can't coach six foot three. You know what I mean?

00:24:45.142 --> 00:24:49.242
Like, like if you're six foot three, good on you. My son is not six foot three.

00:24:49.382 --> 00:24:50.522
He's not going to be six foot three.

00:24:50.722 --> 00:24:55.582
So there's a whole different avenue of sports that opens up when you're that tall.

00:24:56.642 --> 00:25:00.642
You know, and these kids are they're putting seven days a week in and they're

00:25:00.642 --> 00:25:03.022
and they're, you know, they're going here and they're going there.

00:25:03.162 --> 00:25:05.662
And my son is not doing that, not because he doesn't want to,

00:25:05.822 --> 00:25:08.242
but because he's working. He's got school.

00:25:09.242 --> 00:25:13.902
Baseball is part of his life. It is not his life. And it's a parent's life,

00:25:13.922 --> 00:25:20.662
too. And I don't bash on any particular sport, although mine plays baseball. Um.

00:25:22.142 --> 00:25:25.142
I've seen this across the board in all kinds of sports. Yeah.

00:25:25.442 --> 00:25:31.842
Oh, yeah. 100%. And not to bash just on sports, I think sports are sort of the

00:25:31.842 --> 00:25:36.862
most popular or sort of in the biggest number. We have people playing sports

00:25:36.862 --> 00:25:38.562
or cheer or dance. Right.

00:25:39.082 --> 00:25:43.582
But I've had moms reach out talking about, you know, messy theater dynamics.

00:25:43.982 --> 00:25:50.042
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So I hear it, too. I think that's less prominent than our

00:25:50.042 --> 00:25:52.422
sports culture. but I think it's everywhere.

00:25:52.942 --> 00:25:57.162
Yeah. Two of my, my girls are like heavily involved in theater.

00:25:57.322 --> 00:26:03.122
And I have to say that we've, we've been at like the same school since they

00:26:03.122 --> 00:26:05.842
were, so they're in seventh grade now, since they were in third,

00:26:06.102 --> 00:26:07.402
like third into fourth grade.

00:26:07.782 --> 00:26:11.182
And we've been there for this long because she's

00:26:11.182 --> 00:26:14.222
got like such a zero tolerance policy for any

00:26:14.222 --> 00:26:17.742
of that and it is probably like the healthiest environment

00:26:17.742 --> 00:26:20.722
that they are they go to um and they

00:26:20.722 --> 00:26:23.542
are like running out of the car to get you know to me i always

00:26:23.542 --> 00:26:26.962
say like if i have to ask you more than once we're not going um

00:26:26.962 --> 00:26:29.862
so and like that's that but they are just always like

00:26:29.862 --> 00:26:32.722
come on and let's go and we're running and they and and that really is

00:26:32.722 --> 00:26:35.422
a like a testament to like those but those are like the

00:26:35.422 --> 00:26:38.042
diamond places you know like you have to find the you know

00:26:38.042 --> 00:26:41.182
the people that align with your value system too

00:26:41.182 --> 00:26:44.442
well and it's and then and then you know you have these i'm not

00:26:44.442 --> 00:26:47.462
trying to knock the sport so uh youtube don't

00:26:47.462 --> 00:26:50.482
come at me um you know in regards to like the

00:26:50.482 --> 00:26:53.742
cheerleading groups and the different teams that people are on and what competition they're

00:26:53.742 --> 00:26:56.602
going to and whether you know if you're on a travel team

00:26:56.602 --> 00:27:00.202
that is only traveling in new jersey or are you going to arizona and

00:27:00.202 --> 00:27:07.522
atlanta and this it's like it's layer upon layer upon layer and i do think that

00:27:07.522 --> 00:27:17.902
sports inherently drives a different type of competition than like the arts or theater.

00:27:18.122 --> 00:27:21.802
And I do think that the people in arts or theater, and again,

00:27:21.942 --> 00:27:24.862
this is a broad stereotype. This is not coming from a textbook.

00:27:25.022 --> 00:27:26.442
This is my own personal thought.

00:27:27.662 --> 00:27:31.142
I think those are some people that are a little bit more in touch with their

00:27:31.142 --> 00:27:35.342
emotions and how, you know, theater in particular, right? Like,

00:27:35.502 --> 00:27:40.922
how do I perceive emotions? I'm reading human behavior. I'm studying human behavior

00:27:40.922 --> 00:27:42.262
if I'm an actress, right?

00:27:42.462 --> 00:27:48.222
I think the sports world, it is a little bit more about numbers and performance

00:27:48.222 --> 00:27:54.442
versus feelings and emotionality and depth of relationships.

00:27:54.482 --> 00:27:58.602
It's about are we winning or losing? And I think with the arts a lot,

00:27:58.762 --> 00:28:00.122
it doesn't boil down to that.

00:28:01.182 --> 00:28:05.162
So I don't want to necessarily change the subject or go in a different direction,

00:28:05.182 --> 00:28:07.582
but, you know, a couple of talking points that we had.

00:28:07.802 --> 00:28:10.042
Yeah. And and so.

00:28:11.162 --> 00:28:15.382
Wait, before you before you do shift. Yeah. No, of course. Go ahead.

00:28:16.435 --> 00:28:19.235
Why is it or what are some of the

00:28:19.235 --> 00:28:22.735
what could be a reason for why so

00:28:22.735 --> 00:28:25.535
much of like what is a good parent that's been like a

00:28:25.535 --> 00:28:30.315
conversation we've been having lately of like why is this idea of like our generation

00:28:30.315 --> 00:28:34.735
and I really don't blame people because I feel Joe and I we both this we've

00:28:34.735 --> 00:28:39.875
fallen into this why is it that it's a like you're only a good parent if you

00:28:39.875 --> 00:28:42.855
have them this you know every well,

00:28:43.115 --> 00:28:45.535
like the list of things goes on and on.

00:28:46.155 --> 00:28:51.295
Is there any possibility of ever like breaking out of this? Because I can't

00:28:51.295 --> 00:28:53.495
imagine it getting more intense.

00:28:53.955 --> 00:28:55.595
Can you imagine? No.

00:28:56.275 --> 00:29:00.175
I do think, and again, not to blame technology for everything,

00:29:00.175 --> 00:29:05.035
but we have so much more access to so many more opinions. You know,

00:29:05.155 --> 00:29:08.895
like I think when my mom or when I was growing up, I think there was like Dr.

00:29:08.895 --> 00:29:10.595
Spock. And that was the book.

00:29:10.755 --> 00:29:14.675
Right. And it got you through like, I don't know, maybe 10 years old,

00:29:14.835 --> 00:29:16.295
maybe five years old. I don't know.

00:29:16.575 --> 00:29:20.775
But she didn't have, you know, copious amounts of information.

00:29:20.795 --> 00:29:23.075
And I think we are so overwhelmed.

00:29:23.255 --> 00:29:25.555
We're an emotion, information overload.

00:29:25.975 --> 00:29:32.595
I can go on Instagram, TikTok, Google, chat GPT and get 900 different opinions and ideas.

00:29:33.055 --> 00:29:38.015
And I think we've sort of lost focus of how do I look inside?

00:29:38.695 --> 00:29:41.975
How do I look internally and know how to parent?

00:29:42.495 --> 00:29:47.815
I don't. I mean, I do. I hope I do. But people are kind of looking for external

00:29:47.815 --> 00:29:53.695
sources of validation for how to parent and do something that really probably comes naturally.

00:29:53.995 --> 00:29:59.555
And I think it's great to have more information than maybe our parents did,

00:29:59.695 --> 00:30:02.195
but I think we're pushing it a little far. Yeah.

00:30:03.575 --> 00:30:07.175
With the amount of information. And so then you're constantly measuring yourself

00:30:07.175 --> 00:30:09.475
up against all these different markers.

00:30:10.115 --> 00:30:15.315
Yeah. That also recently happened amongst, you know, our kids' group of friends.

00:30:15.495 --> 00:30:20.455
I mean, just to make mention of something small, it was like after the junior

00:30:20.455 --> 00:30:21.815
prom, they're like, oh, what are we going to do?

00:30:21.955 --> 00:30:24.535
And they're like, oh, we're going to go here. We're going to do this.

00:30:24.615 --> 00:30:25.375
We're going to go to Great Adventure.

00:30:25.775 --> 00:30:28.615
And my kids are like, I don't want to do that.

00:30:28.795 --> 00:30:31.975
And it's like, well, but that's what we're doing because everybody does something

00:30:31.975 --> 00:30:34.715
after the junior prom. So we have to do, and they were like,

00:30:36.267 --> 00:30:40.127
No, no, I'm not. I like, I don't, I'm not a rollercoaster person.

00:30:40.447 --> 00:30:44.367
It makes me sick. My son is shopping for a car. We were going to look for a

00:30:44.367 --> 00:30:46.207
car. I didn't know this was happening, you know, that was happening,

00:30:46.367 --> 00:30:47.347
that they were going to go out afterwards.

00:30:47.627 --> 00:30:50.827
Like, but they kind of stood their ground and were like, well,

00:30:50.887 --> 00:30:54.147
no, I don't have to do something just because everybody else is doing something.

00:30:54.447 --> 00:30:58.687
It's the, uh, you know, it's the old thing that if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?

00:30:58.867 --> 00:31:02.287
It's like one of those types of things, right? Like, I'm kind of proud of them

00:31:02.287 --> 00:31:06.247
for being like, no, like, no, we're not doing this because like,

00:31:06.267 --> 00:31:09.227
Like, it's not a conversation. It was somebody else, like, dictating,

00:31:09.327 --> 00:31:10.367
hey, here's what you should do.

00:31:11.427 --> 00:31:15.927
I think, though, like, even as a mom, I, like, I remember, like,

00:31:15.967 --> 00:31:20.707
with my first, like, with the milestones, there was, like, so much pressure.

00:31:21.987 --> 00:31:25.047
With, like, how many words are they saying? Oh, God. Yeah.

00:31:25.447 --> 00:31:28.427
And are they crawling? And they should. And how are they crawling?

00:31:28.667 --> 00:31:31.347
And is it hand-to-hand? And are they, you know, pulling themselves up?

00:31:31.447 --> 00:31:35.727
And it was always just this, you know, and then you would have, like,

00:31:36.267 --> 00:31:40.987
my mom who would say like, ah, they're not going to get married wearing a diaper,

00:31:41.047 --> 00:31:44.887
you know, or like, oh, they're not going to go to college with the pacifier

00:31:44.887 --> 00:31:45.847
in their mouth, you know?

00:31:45.967 --> 00:31:50.467
And so like some of that, like chill, it was like, you look around at your own

00:31:50.467 --> 00:31:52.667
friends and other moms and dads.

00:31:52.827 --> 00:31:55.507
And like, there was, it was like, oh my gosh, I don't know. I think that they

00:31:55.507 --> 00:31:59.887
probably should. And so it was like, you're always absorbing all of that.

00:32:00.107 --> 00:32:02.967
Like there's no one to look at to be like the touchstone of

00:32:02.967 --> 00:32:06.187
like right gonna be that's that's kind it's

00:32:06.187 --> 00:32:08.967
almost kind of where it started like if

00:32:08.967 --> 00:32:11.687
i if i go back and because we had the you know we had

00:32:11.687 --> 00:32:15.387
twins first right and then you guys had your your girls like we were constantly

00:32:15.387 --> 00:32:20.447
comparing well this one sophia says 24 words but joey's only saying 17 well

00:32:20.447 --> 00:32:23.747
that's also because sophia was a chatterbox and joey was probably that's like

00:32:23.747 --> 00:32:28.067
oh my god i want silence and he probably just didn't talk because He was busy

00:32:28.067 --> 00:32:30.447
playing with blocks And didn't want to have a conversation,

00:32:31.287 --> 00:32:34.847
Because my daughter was taking up All the room and all the space with her words,

00:32:35.567 --> 00:32:40.727
So like we were constantly Comparing them to each other In a room when they're just two different.

00:32:41.930 --> 00:32:45.010
Organisms you know living in a particular

00:32:45.010 --> 00:32:48.190
space but a lot of what what jamie's saying there's like you

00:32:48.190 --> 00:32:51.110
know they're not going to graduate with a diaper you know like those

00:32:51.110 --> 00:32:53.870
types of things are like we need to remember that but we're always

00:32:53.870 --> 00:32:56.610
comparing you know which kid was reading first which kid

00:32:56.610 --> 00:32:59.810
was you know saying their alphabet and yeah and

00:32:59.810 --> 00:33:03.030
now we're comparing to millions of people on on

00:33:03.030 --> 00:33:07.670
platforms right like it's hard enough when you're you're comparing to your own

00:33:07.670 --> 00:33:12.950
children or siblings who's got the most elaborate promposal and who's got the

00:33:12.950 --> 00:33:20.350
uh the the the bed party for college right the the stuff on the bed is that

00:33:20.350 --> 00:33:22.750
a thing that's the thing right the thing it never.

00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:27.750
Coordinating it's a bed party it's called a bed party i'm not i i hope i wasn't

00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:30.970
like calling it no it's a bed party and and it's when it's some sort of naughty

00:33:30.970 --> 00:33:36.110
thing that everyone's gonna go So when you're a senior and you announce which

00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:38.750
college you've decided to go to,

00:33:38.770 --> 00:33:41.210
not necessarily what you've been accepted to,

00:33:41.290 --> 00:33:44.150
but which college you've decided that you're committed to.

00:33:44.330 --> 00:33:49.070
And there are balloons and everything on your bed is like all the merch from the school.

00:33:49.350 --> 00:33:53.010
And and then there's like you shop for like every food.

00:33:53.270 --> 00:33:56.930
So if your school colors are red and black, you would find like every.

00:33:57.150 --> 00:34:00.010
Noelle just rolled her eyes. I do. I do want to point that out.

00:34:00.010 --> 00:34:02.150
Because the most like, oh God, it was great.

00:34:02.510 --> 00:34:05.870
Yeah, every snack. So if your school's blue, you can only have blue Doritos

00:34:05.870 --> 00:34:07.570
or like, you know, powering blue.

00:34:07.690 --> 00:34:11.390
This is the competition, right? That's what I'm saying. This is going back to competition.

00:34:12.952 --> 00:34:18.512
You know, for us, for us, it was like, yeah, when you put the sticker on the

00:34:18.512 --> 00:34:22.272
back of your window, when you said you were going to go to this school,

00:34:22.592 --> 00:34:24.112
that's when you were announcing it.

00:34:24.212 --> 00:34:28.052
Like that was that was the deal when you had I got back of the window and I

00:34:28.052 --> 00:34:32.652
got because I went to a school that was I commuted to college and it was very

00:34:32.652 --> 00:34:37.812
close to where I where I lived in high school. It was like 10 miles, not even.

00:34:38.512 --> 00:34:44.932
And all I heard was, why don't you just like, oh, is that the 13th grade?

00:34:45.092 --> 00:34:46.632
Like, why even bother going to college?

00:34:47.072 --> 00:34:50.612
So I never, I would have never done a bed party.

00:34:50.792 --> 00:34:54.572
I didn't even want anybody to know where I was going to school.

00:34:54.752 --> 00:34:59.412
I was frankly like embarrassed about it. And, um, and now like even like the

00:34:59.412 --> 00:35:04.572
whole, um, like the declaration day or decision day, I think it's like May 1st or something.

00:35:04.732 --> 00:35:09.952
And everyone's got a shirt and everyone like, and they do this with their hands

00:35:09.952 --> 00:35:13.392
and, and boys, girls, it doesn't matter. And they all have the shirt.

00:35:13.712 --> 00:35:17.512
And like, it's a constant, I mean, the hours that I've tech talked,

00:35:17.912 --> 00:35:20.732
um, I don't know, you know? Yes.

00:35:21.792 --> 00:35:24.972
Yeah so i i know about the sports competition this

00:35:24.972 --> 00:35:28.832
is all i did know about sort of um you

00:35:28.832 --> 00:35:31.632
know you don't even get a roommate in this even getting a

00:35:31.632 --> 00:35:37.212
college dorm mate or roommate is pressure so much you've got to find the person

00:35:37.212 --> 00:35:41.432
before i remember i filled out a questionnaire and it was like do you smoke

00:35:41.432 --> 00:35:47.092
do you like to stay up late right and then they matched you with someone Now

00:35:47.092 --> 00:35:48.832
I've heard from my clients,

00:35:49.152 --> 00:35:51.032
my young adult or teenage clients,

00:35:51.698 --> 00:35:54.598
They feel like they're behind the eight ball if they don't have their college

00:35:54.598 --> 00:35:57.218
roommate picked out before school's even over.

00:35:57.418 --> 00:36:04.078
Yes. Because they've got to get on the coordinating of the interior design for the dorm room. Yes.

00:36:04.718 --> 00:36:09.958
And I, so I have a niece and a nephew. One is just finished her second year

00:36:09.958 --> 00:36:12.158
of college and the other, he's just graduating.

00:36:12.738 --> 00:36:17.238
And so this is so interesting to me because they, you know, it was like you

00:36:17.238 --> 00:36:20.078
have to meet and then you talk beforehand. And then they have all of these groups,

00:36:20.278 --> 00:36:24.918
these social groups online for the colleges that they're going to before they've even gone.

00:36:25.718 --> 00:36:29.338
And, and in order to, you know, have these groups, but what's,

00:36:29.338 --> 00:36:33.258
what's crazier is that like, okay, so you're, you know, you're 17 and you're,

00:36:33.518 --> 00:36:35.438
you know, now meeting other kids that are going to go to your school.

00:36:35.598 --> 00:36:37.938
They have them for adults, for the parents.

00:36:38.538 --> 00:36:40.798
And my sister was like, what?

00:36:41.718 --> 00:36:46.018
Huh? Like, you know, just when you start to think like, oh, I'm, I have a break.

00:36:46.178 --> 00:36:50.698
Ha ha ha. Um, no, because now you're on groups where they're,

00:36:50.898 --> 00:36:54.278
yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot about that.

00:36:54.478 --> 00:36:58.958
This would be sort of, uh, to me, a version of enmeshment, right?

00:36:59.138 --> 00:37:03.218
Where does the child's life begin and yours separates?

00:37:03.638 --> 00:37:07.918
Yeah. And who's, and the other question is who thought this was a good idea?

00:37:08.338 --> 00:37:12.618
That's, that's what I'd love to know. Like, like for parents to be in a chat

00:37:12.618 --> 00:37:16.698
group or like, like who, like, but also like, if If I don't think it's a good

00:37:16.698 --> 00:37:20.798
idea, please don't be mean to me about it. Yes.

00:37:21.178 --> 00:37:26.298
Because it's great for you, but it's just not, you know, it's like.

00:37:26.738 --> 00:37:31.498
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Because, you know, and I, I'm sorry, but I do think like

00:37:31.498 --> 00:37:35.338
some of this stems back to one of the things that's like my biggest pet peeve,

00:37:35.458 --> 00:37:38.458
which is like when your child comes out of elementary school and they throw

00:37:38.458 --> 00:37:43.598
the backpack at you and they like, and people accept the backpack and carry it for them.

00:37:43.598 --> 00:37:49.878
And there's something about that that I never can understand.

00:37:50.778 --> 00:37:55.398
And also it's like, so to me, it's like, at what age do you not carry the back? Right.

00:37:55.718 --> 00:37:59.358
So it's like, I feel like sometimes, and that is, I'm very judgmental about that. Like, why?

00:38:00.058 --> 00:38:03.458
No, ma'am. Why are you carrying their backpack? And they're,

00:38:03.578 --> 00:38:05.878
and most of the time it's like, they're just throwing it.

00:38:06.038 --> 00:38:11.558
And so I feel like it's this idea of like, I would not, I would never do that.

00:38:11.598 --> 00:38:15.318
But like, you're not that good of a mom. because you should carry it for them.

00:38:15.598 --> 00:38:20.478
And just the same as like, you shouldn't tell them no and you shouldn't be punishing

00:38:20.478 --> 00:38:22.498
them. And, oh, they didn't mean it.

00:38:22.638 --> 00:38:28.458
And, you know, it's like this whole constant, that's the talk that happens all the time.

00:38:28.598 --> 00:38:34.458
Well, and I think we're trying to protect our kids from feeling any form of distress, right?

00:38:34.638 --> 00:38:40.218
And at the end of the day, again, I like to come back to this idea that grown-up

00:38:40.218 --> 00:38:42.638
mean girls or mean girl moms or dads.

00:38:43.598 --> 00:38:48.018
I like to think or hope that they are really operating from a place of really,

00:38:48.198 --> 00:38:50.398
truly wanting to protect their child. Yeah.

00:38:51.248 --> 00:38:56.408
That's an explanation, not an excuse. But I think it comes from this sort of

00:38:56.408 --> 00:39:02.848
biological evolutionary place where we've sort of that's always been there, especially for women.

00:39:03.088 --> 00:39:08.408
Right. The mama bear or the way women evolutionary evolutionarily speaking.

00:39:08.708 --> 00:39:13.628
Right. We were the homemakers. We were caring for the children while our spouses

00:39:13.628 --> 00:39:15.948
or partners went out hunting and gathering food.

00:39:16.188 --> 00:39:22.708
Right. And so our relationships were really critical to us having the resources

00:39:22.708 --> 00:39:27.428
and the help that we needed at home base, right?

00:39:27.568 --> 00:39:32.188
And it was too dangerous to get physically aggressive because we had to care for our children.

00:39:32.608 --> 00:39:39.208
And so we used those close relationships as a means of getting what we needed

00:39:39.208 --> 00:39:41.768
when there was something off in the group.

00:39:41.968 --> 00:39:45.528
So this is very, very based in evolution.

00:39:46.648 --> 00:39:52.128
And I think now with resources feeling more scarce to people,

00:39:52.168 --> 00:39:57.868
I think because we're highlighting what everybody else has or doesn't have, right,

00:39:58.188 --> 00:40:03.448
over-curating what everyone has, we are feeling like there's less to go around.

00:40:04.448 --> 00:40:09.308
And so I think it's exacerbating this feeling of I need to protect my kin.

00:40:09.488 --> 00:40:14.688
I need to protect my own and I'll do whatever it takes to do that.

00:40:14.688 --> 00:40:17.588
And is that where that idea of scarcity was coming into play again,

00:40:17.648 --> 00:40:18.488
like you were talking about?

00:40:18.648 --> 00:40:21.528
Like we're fighting for the limited resources, right?

00:40:21.768 --> 00:40:24.768
That's what I think it feels like psychologically to people.

00:40:25.008 --> 00:40:27.468
Whether it's true or not, I

00:40:27.468 --> 00:40:31.528
think it feels that way, right? There's only X number of D1 scholarships.

00:40:33.528 --> 00:40:37.248
And I don't want my kid to miss out. And I don't know what to do if my kid's

00:40:37.248 --> 00:40:39.168
upset or distressed or disappointed.

00:40:39.588 --> 00:40:42.168
So I'm just going to make sure he's not disappointed. it.

00:40:43.588 --> 00:40:52.548
And I think it's very sort of, it's like a visceral response for some people. Yeah. Wow.

00:40:53.408 --> 00:40:58.348
Well, you know, we're going to continue our conversation with Dr.

00:40:58.488 --> 00:41:03.148
Santorelli in a part two that's going to be coming up very shortly.

00:41:03.728 --> 00:41:08.388
So we, you know, appreciate Dr. Santorelli, I appreciate you.

00:41:09.148 --> 00:41:13.708
I appreciate y'all. And Jamie, we appreciate you too. We appreciate everybody.

00:41:14.048 --> 00:41:16.848
Yeah, so we're going to continue this conversation and bring Dr.

00:41:16.988 --> 00:41:21.668
Santorelli back for a part two for us to continue to talk about relational aggression,

00:41:21.668 --> 00:41:26.368
what it looks like in schools and among different systems, you said. Systems.

00:41:26.788 --> 00:41:30.028
So yeah, we're going to see everybody on our next episode with Dr.

00:41:30.128 --> 00:41:31.588
Santorelli on the Balancing Act podcast.

00:41:31.920 --> 00:42:10.089
Music.